You have landed at the McClaughry’s blog, where my wife and I write about topics of interest to us.
Riveting, RIVETING blog. Thanks for publishing it. Just read your series about Camarillo, MK Ultra and the “Clinical trials”, etc. Truly chilling and horrific stuff… yet I could not stop reading. Heartbreaking, those tortured “patients” – I hope their souls have found some peace. Cannot fathom such cruelty. Is is really human nature to be so cruel?? I guess its just human nature to be greedy (money). Be well! Best, LB
COMMENT by “gargy” and response moved by Mike to appropriate page – Chapter 30 Scientology Roots
An interesting blog…
Thank you very much for this eye opening review.
W. Meißner, Germany
I stepped in at Virginia’s excellent post defining (humanizing) Sociopathy. I guess the human element is the most disturbing part, but it is the ingredient that must not be neglected, eh? Is most of the blog about Scientology? I am primarily interested in the discussion of Sociopathy.
Yes, my blog has quite a bit about Scientology here, but if you use the search function for “sociopath” you might find some other articles that interest you. – Mike
Here’s one you might like:
Question to Virginia McClaughry:
Re “The Niet articles of Papus alleging a conspiracy against the Russian Monarchy. This was basically a false flag attack also arranged by the British, together with Rachkovsky, using two frenchmen.”
“… he (Pilenas) was working for the Okhrana and Melville at the very time that the Niet articles were created by combined Russian and British intelligence as a false flag operation and cover to get Papus into place at the Russian court!”
Could you give explicit references regarding the “British” and the “two frenchmen” and the combined Russian-British jntelligence operation?
Hello Roland, I’m currently waiting the documentation of that particular part of it from a friend of mine. As soon as I get it I’ll be adding it to the library article. Meanwhile, I have been adding other documentation to the Casimir Pilenas article (that you quoted) as I arrange and file things, so do check back to see what’s been added. Thanks for your interest! – Virginia
What a nice reading room! Gorgeous old table with the snow softly falling.
I want to thank you for your totally cool blog. I’m writing a play about the Armenian Genocide and the information concerning OSS Istanbul is the best source so far about a rather obscure bit of history. Absolutely insightful, lighthearted, and just great!!!!! Walker/Rose info is difficult to come by. And it makes my play more interesting. Everything I’ve found about Rose is immediately overshadowed by Dogwood. Anyway thank you again.
You are very welcome Richard – thank so much for your lovely comment! – Virginia
I would like to ask you a couple of questions about your blog on John Dee, Bacon etc.
I cannot find an email address on here, could you send me one so we can talk? email@example.com
Which page/post is it you have questions about? – Mike
I wondered if I could contact you directly..? Email, phone or otherwise. I and many many others attended program(s) that after reading your research…I am beginning to see possible connections and extensions to these programs. Plus other research that may help link your data with theirs. I am not sure if my accounts or information would be additional assistance, interesting enough, or if you could help me and others connect the dots to prove they are connected. Our experiences included syanon style teachings, including a system very very similar to “the game”, and other things. Coming from a background of following “conspiracy theories”. My years post these programs has been a journey of difficult to research, and long road of understanding my programming. The whole thing is just eerie, and love the work. It helped connect so many dots, even ones I thought I had already connected. Thank you for your time.
In case you missed it, the email contact info is here on this page that you’re commenting on.
I would be very interested in contacting or being contacted by you. Do you know of others that have been tampered with? I am also a victim, from a very young age. I am AdamJ. and I started the project mk ultra survivors support group on facebook not long ago for people like us to communicate and share ideas and link up. You can get in touch with me from there. And great big thank you to the McClaughrys for providing this very important place.
I was wondering if you had a way to reach out to you directly? In relation to the synanon docs and possible extensions to these programs and first hand accounts.
Hi. You could go ahead and tell your story by responding to the appropriate post or page in its comment section – I would see it and if I think its helpful I’ll approve the comment so I can reply to it.
[edited to remove private details]
Can I help you with something Mr. Horry? – Mike
This has nothing to do with the blog but my dad is also Mike McClaughry, I am April McClaughry and it is just weird to find another McClaughry out there especially a Mike McClaughry. Just wanted to say hi!
I thought i saw on your site an FBI document about the grateful dead being a psy op to channel dissent, but i can’t find it anywhere. can you help me locate it?
There was a post here (currently being moved/edited as part of a series to the reading library) that talked about bogus sources ALLEGING something like that, and I tracked down the real FBI docs at the FBI vault.
But your wording of “channel dissent” actually sounds like something MKULTRA psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyn West said – and that is here –
Hope that helps!
thank you. strange i cannot find the document. i thought i saw it once before. you think it might be bogus? but here it is referenced: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jdyf333/4553187257/sizes/l/in/photostream/
it is not in the FBI vault.
i’ve got Jan Irvin looking too. must be somewhere. thanks!
Hi – just dug into that supposed NY Times article you found. I have a New York Times membership so I just searched their archives plus another source for all newspapers that I have, using title, text from article, etc. No such article.
If you look closely at the article you linked to at Flicker – it does look “off, so I think we may be dealing with dummied up news articles like my husband talks about here –
wow. crazy. like a Karl Rove trick. create a pseudo revelation, when it’s exposed as such, it discredits a real inquiry. you’re sure no such article ever appeared in the new york times? damn.
Yea. It looks that way. Wow.
I kind of doubt the NY Times Archive search suddenly just failed to work on just that ONE article, but I suppose it’s possible. But not real probable.
I also have been through the New York Times looking for that article. Page by page of the supposed date, and multiple editions. I agree with your conclusion that it appears to be a fake. If it was real, they would have had to have substituted a story of the exact same size into the paper layout file and NYT archive, because there are no missing or redacted sections of the paper.
Interesting that the typical Intel “muddying the waters” strategy is being applied to the Grateful Dead. This document claiming that the FBI and DEA believed LSD “originated” via the Grateful Dead (pg 14) appears to be legit:
What happened to the excellent Grateful Dead material that was previously here, about Grace Marie Hardy, Willy Legate, and other Scientology connections?
Pretty wild eh? It figures that paralleling-the-truth bogus article came out of the Larouche contingency (I believe it was). As to the Brotherhood of Eternal Love segment that you are asking about, it’s not gone, it’s just part of some things I want to move to the Reading Library and re-arrange, update, and revamp – and the FBI doc you refer to was in that article so I do know about that, but I like that you have a link straight to that part so I’ll use that when I redo things. Did you notice that page 5 had at the top “Re: Black Panther Party”? That’s really interesting, because in former CIA agent Tom Tripodi’s book he talks about that he was running a black operation against the BPP, I believe right at this time. I’ll be adding in a lot of interesting points from his book to various works here as I go along. I hope to get that all done later this year. Virginia
I found this researching for Wikispooks – specifically looking up John S. Earman. Wikipedia, good for some things, is not good for the history that got swept under the carpet. Well, I suppose Wikipedia _is_ the carpet, so how could it be? Anyway, I much appreciate your work in collecting data on Mr. Earman and his activities. All useful data to help people interpret what the spooks are up to nowadays…
Belated thanks for this comment Robin! Virginia McClaughry
I met Mitch Spence, he was married to Rheva Spence.
That’s one of his marriages, yes, Yvonne Gillham married RHEVA BITTELAM to Scott Mayer under his fake name of Mitchell Spence on December 29, 1968. The proof that he married under a false name is a statement by Scott Mayer referring to his wife and I quote: “I rarely speak of how my ex-wife, Rheva Bittleman….” and “As I dined with my new wife Rheva…”
I could find NO real marriage records of him marrying Rheva using the name Scott Mayer – only as his cover name of Homer Mitchell Spence.
The really messed up part of this story is that he was married August 17th, 1968 in Orange, California to Victoria R. Macleod – maiden name Qualls, and he did use his real name Scott A. Mayer. But just four months later, as he’s going into the Sea Org, he’s marrying Rheva Bittleman under a false name.!I know it’s him because he marries Rheva AGAIN two years later 10 December 1970 in Broward County, Florida – where her parents lived – under another variation of his fake name. This time Homer Mitchell Spence.
Scott apparently divorced Rheva because he then gets married to Sarah (Sally) P. Leopold in Los Angeles City, October 14, 1973 per California marriage records, this time using the name Scott A. Mayer.
But a year later he apparently divorced her and married Merle Goodman in Nevada 22 August 1974, using his fake Homer Mitchell Spence name again.
Scott’s real name wasn’t even Scott. It was Harry Albert Mayer but his propensity for switching his name around and using false names shows up young. At age 16 he registers for a Social Security number using a reversed version of his real name plus a different last name. He registers as: Albert Harry Mather.
Scott wasn’t even Scott until some arbitrary time later in his life.
His gravestone has an even different version of his name – it has it as Harry Albert Scott Mayer!
It wasn’t until February 1973 that the Social Security Administration shows him first starting to use the name Scott Albert Mayer. The same year that he marries Sally Leopold using his NEW name, do note.
This guy has trouble keeping his name straight – that’s for sure.
Arnie, in case you haven’t read the above yet, further proof that Captain Spence (Herman Mitchell Spence) are the same person was provided by Scott himself as well.
In the above link you’ll see information about a 20-minute French programme on Scientology broadcast in January 1972. A scientology critic found this during a “rummage around the website of France’s broadcasting archive, l’Institut national de l’audiovisuel.” I have seen this film, and in it Scott is introduced as Captain Spence.
In my article I then provided a still of Captain Spence from the film, then I put it next to a picture that Scott himself provided to the A&E Investigative Reports show on Scientology; originally broadcast December 14, 1998, originally archived by Mark Bunker.
They are a dead match.
My memory isnt as fast as it once was. the [roblem Im having is I MET a man named Gerry Spence and is wasnt Scott Mayer.
Ah, maybe that’s the problem. There isn’t anyone named Gerry Spence that I’m examining.
Scott Mayer used the name Homer Mitchell Spence to marry Rheva Bittleman.
Arnie, it is HIS statments in affidavits and tv shows that confirm that it was him that married Rheva. His. Not mine.
It is HIM that submitted a picture of himself from his Sea Org days to the A & E tv show – that matches exactly the 1972 footage of him being called Captain Spence. HIM. He did that. Not me.
I’m really sorry Arnie, I know you liked him, but I can’t change the facts here.
I’m sorry Mr McClaughcy, the document displayed looks like one of those seized by the FBI raid in 77.
So it is essentially a GO internal paranoia map…Hell, they accused ME of being CIA after I effortlessly picked a lock to a closet where the GO was interviewing people as being moles.
and I didnt want to wait for them find the key, so I got lucky, picked the lock open.
I am dissapointed because I see confirmation bias, and having sat at dinner at USLO in the presence of Mitch Spence who did not look like Scotty at all… sigh…the problem Im having is too many people are dead from back then. There are few witnesses.
Is Randy McDonald the same author of the S-i-r-s tology site? A major fill-the-vacuum disinfo site, IMO.
The document has State Department routing Arnie. Did you notice that?
It also says NOT FOI – which would mean the State Department didn’t want it public knowledge.
Why do you think that was?
You said: “having sat at dinner at USLO in the presence of Mitch Spence who did not look like Scotty at all”
Ok, let’s look at this then Arnie.
What year was this?
What did that person look like?
Did he look like the picture in the 1972 French film footage?
Because there is no getting around that footage.
And if you can’t look at that film and say, Yes, That’s the Mitch Spence that I saw, then we’re left with only two options that I can see for this remembered event of yours.
Either you are remembering someone else, or….there were TWO different people using the same fake name.
Either way, one of them was definitely Scott Mayer, no getting around that.
1971 811 Beacon Street, LA
Long face, light beard (at time) ‘what did he look like” – dunno how to describe that, looked like a new SO officer I hadnt seen before.
That description is definitely not the same person as Captain Mitch Spence/Scott Mayer shown in the 1972 film and the later A & E show.
FYI – I don’t, in any way, agree with just about any of the core premises that have been put out by Ashton/Randy/Robin whoever, whether from the scirsology website or in any other covert form they try to promote them under.
need fone conference
Sure, we can do that.
I’d be happy to once I finish sorting out the article, because then I can definitively have something to pick your brain about and see what you think.
So far, I have Scott’s own statements and the photos as irrefutable proof.
Tell me what you make of that Arnie- because I don’t see how anyone can explain those away.
I’m also always open to looking at counter-evidence if you have some but I have looked high and low and have not found anything to refute Scott’s own words.
Wow, you have done a lot of research finding many details which are quite interesting about my brother, Scott Mayer. Much of his life is unknown to me so I won’t claim to be able to disprove anything that you say. However, as Arnie mentioned, I have to wonder if there isn’t some confirmation bias at work. Your statement regarding getting a SS card issued in a false name at age 16, for instance, is rather extreme. It is not unusual in families for names to shift a bit, particularly when there are bad feelings due to divorce. As a youngster, Scott was never called Harry, he was always known as Albert. And since Mom had recently married my dad, it is not surprising that he would have gone by the new last name. Hardly the stuff of deep cover. I have no idea what happened during the Vietnam war years. The video capture from the french film though of Captaine Spence does not look or sound like him to me. I can see where someone would think it was the same person if they did not know him. But for someone deeply familiar with the way he looked, moved, and sounded, it doesn’t even hit the uncanny valley place. If he did hold that identity, it was totally unknown to his family. We knew about the marriage to Victoria, were present for the marriage to Sally Leopold, and also met Rheva. What I do recall about the marriage to Rheva was being told it was never official because they were married on board the ship but the papers were never filed for it. If he was a CIA agent, he took that secret with him and never divulged it to any of the family.
Hello Amy! Thanks for your comment. First, perhaps you are unaware that my work on the CIA/NSA Personnel List document that had a State Department routing on it is by no means complete. The Library article clearly states that it is in draft status only. There is also two posts about Scott, in the blog section (versus the Reading Library section) – the links the two different sections are at the top of any page (or should be anyway). One of the two posts in the blog section, about Scott, is an update where I clearly point out that I think the voices don’t match, between the French footage of Captain Spence (Mitchell Herman) and Scott’s footage on the two tv shows.
Did you not see that post?
I’m glad you wonder about confirmation bias. So do I. But it isn’t something I do.
I am not currently working on my library article that talks about Scott (the one that’s in draft status) right at the moment, but when I do I’ll be sure and add what you said about the marriage to Rheva.
One question I do have right now, off the top of my head, is do you recall WHEN this marriage to Rheva was supposed to have taken place aboard the ship, and WHICH ship that was? The Apollo, or what.
Thanks again for taking the time to comment. – Virginia
Thank you for your reply Virginia. Subsequent to writing the above comment I did find the newer blog page where you talk about realizing that the video is not a match. I do not recall exactly when the “marriage” to Rheva took place. I do have a photo album with a picture of Scott and Rheva taken when visiting our family dated 2/3/76 and they were considered married then. This must have been after their time in Johannesburg because I have a vivid memory of Rheva telling us about the Bantu police coming to their apartment looking for a fugitive. I have a vague impression that the papers were supposed to have been filed in a Latin American port when some receipts were turned in to the local Scientology office. I don’t remember which ship it was. Next time I talk with my sister I will see if she remembers.
We didn’t find it strange that he changed his name to Scott. It was the 60’s/70’s and it was not a cool name and it was part of establishing his own identity apart from his father. We honored this need of his and respected his choice of a new name. When he died and my sister ordered the marker for the plot in Amherst she chose to include it along with his birth name.
Have you tried contacting Rheva via facebook to ask her?
Glad you found the post. Yep, all I had previously were “still” images and they were uncannily similar, but when I obtained the French footage I felt that the similarity was definitely no longer the same.
As to Rheva, I’m not on facebook, so no, I haven’t.
Well, at least now, because of your answer, I know that the marriage was some time prior to 1976, so thank you. That at least pins it down a little anyway.
As to name change, while I respect your views on it, I cannot in good conscience believe that Scott started using a different name because of daddy issues. However, I am not surprised that is what he told you.
There is other evidence, from Scott himself, to support that he didn’t have this need to be apart from his father as the reason. Particularly one of his affidavits where he was quite complimentary of his background, and most importantly STILL talking with him and consulting with him WHILE he was in scientology and discussing their intelligence activities with his father while I guess his father was still active in the U.S. intelligence community.
Perhaps you can help with that.
Taken from the main library article that’s still in draft status, ie:
I wrote this:
“Scott also said that his father was an intelligence advisor to the Joint Chiefs – which would be after 1947, one presumes, when that committee became official under the National Security Act.”
And then I included that in Scott’s court testimony was the following:
MR. LeCHER: That’s a good answer. One final one: What would you compare this organization to?
MR. -MAYER: I think it’s I think it’s you have to realize something: My father operated in the intelligence community. I have told him stories that, when I first started getting the heavy training, he was just — I mean, he was shocked at what I was — how I was being trained. We would sit down and go over how those techniques were the same — my father did security for the Nuremburg trials, so he’s no slouch. You know, he was an intelligence advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon. I have never had any problem asking him questions about whether or not this was intelligence technique and getting an answer out of him. He wrote some of the training manuals, all right? So, you are dealing with an organization that has taken the most effective techniques of all the intelligence services, not only taken those techniques and used them to train their own personnel but, then, taking those personnel and putting them into those organizations as operatives. 2
See what I mean? He was in direct and close communication with his father about scientology, the whole time I presume, which doesn’t sound like he’s got daddy issues to me.
My question for you is, do you have any more specific information on what Harry Mayer’s job title actually was when he was acting as “intelligence advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon.” and do you know when, and for how long he operated in that intelligence capacity?
It’s ok if you don’t know, I just thought what the hey, you might so why not ask.
Hi, interesting site.
What archives did you find the letters from Anna Mathiesen and the reply from Edward Hunter? Do you have the cites?
I assume you are talking about this article: https://mikemcclaughry.wordpress.com/the-reading-library/the-basement-just-dox/just-dox-mind-control/earliest-use-of-the-term-brain-washing/
And this image from within that article – https://mikemcclaughry.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/edward-hunter-to-anna-re-hubbard-and-brainwashing-july-1956.png
That image, the letter from Edward, is on page 44 of this PDF: https://mikemcclaughry.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/goff_kenneth-hq-2.pdf
The PDF is part of a number of de-classifed FBI files released on Goff, all of which can be found at the internet archive here: https://archive.org/details/KennethGoff
The long letter from Anna to Hoover is in that same PDF as the Hunter letter (she mentions her letter to Hunter on page 41) as well as also being in the FDA files release which in turn had included some FBI files they had in THEIR files, but I figured you’d rather have the limited to Goff FBI files as a preferred (and simpler) cite source.
Hope that helps.
I do not know anything about Harry’s service history. I only know that he was a career military guy. I will ask my sister if she knows anything about that and also whether she can remember the year and the ship of the “marriage” to Rheva.
Oh wonderful Amy! Thanks so much for your help, I really appreciate it.
A couple of other questions I thought of after my last response. Do you know whether Victoria Qualls was mixed up in the Scientology cult when Scott married her? Or what she did for a living?
By the way, I want you to know that I have nothing against Scott personally. In fact, in my extremely brief involvement with him in an interchange or two on a private list back in 2000, I found him an intelligent and well-mannered man. He stood out to me that way, as “different” than most of the rest of the people there. My research here is not part of some personal vendetta against Scott, but I’m also not going to ignore what may surface as I dig into all this – as part of seeing whether he was or wasn’t involved with intelligence work outside of and/or concurrent with his time in scientology.
Sorry I don’t really have any info about Victoria to share.. I’m not opposed to objective fact finding about Scott and his activities even if the truth might be uncomfortable. It was rather shocking for me to happen upon this. I understand its not personal for you but part of a greater whole project. You obviously spend a great deal of time and effort working on this. However, being an outsider to the subject I am at a disadvantage to evaluate it. I’ll keep reading as I have time and inclination for now and work on being as objective as I can.
Bummer re: Victoria, but oh well, it was worth a try asking. I really appreciated the rest of your response – you’ve obviously got a good head on your shoulders.
Best to you and yours – Virginia
I have just finished Virginia’s dec 2016 article on the history of drug trafficking that led to the breakup of the Guardians Office. Terrific work, I have been a fan of you guys for many years and this piece really brings a lot of your (and others e.g. Doug valentine) research together into something crystal clear, and absolutely staggering.
Without wanting to criticize such an enormous effort being shared with us for free, a lot of the information is repeated, which makes it a tough slog for the reader going through such a long piece. Not sure if this is deliberate or some copying and pasting double ups that didn’t get picked up in editing. Maybe you could separate out the timeline section into a different article?Just a suggestion, keep up the good work.
Hi! Yeah, I know, that one isn’t quite done yet. I’m not sure what you mean about repeated information? Usually I do that to re-orient back to what was being discussed after having to go “sideways” to detail some other aspect. I’m working on something else now, but perhaps you could point out the duplicates you feel shouldn’t be there (you can give me a starting from here “….”) and when I get around to looking at it again I could check it out. I was actually already thinking of creating a somewhat condensed timeline out of both the articles you commented on today, but not until I finish really digging into the back history of drug smuggling, which is what I am working on right now, the first rough draft (kind of ) or “half” of which is in this article:https://mikemcclaughry.wordpress.com/the-reading-library/world-government/the-british-empire-was-founded-on-creating-alcoholics-and-drug-addicts-why-china/
Just started reading the stuff about MRA and Japan. This is really fantastic! I tried to get a copy of the Junas paper but couldn’t. Can you give me any suggestions? I’m writing a PhD at Tokyo University on 1960s Japan, and especially the Yakuza/Right Wing/Cult connection. Your blog REALLY helped! Keep up the great work!!!
Hey thanks Chris! Love to have had this feedback that my husband and I’s work was helpful to you.
We have a copy of the Junas paper and hope to be loading it into the internet archive soon.
You will also love the current research I’m engaged upon, much more about the Yakuza/Right Wing/Cult connection.
I’ll try and remember to drop a reply to you here again when the Junas paper goes “live” and when I finish up the research I mentioned.
Here’s how you can order a copy of the Junas paper yourself, like we did.
You go here:
and you’ll see this on the list: Rising Moon: The Unification Church’s Japan Connection, Working Paper no.5.
Make a note of the Collection name its under, which section etc., then go to this page: https://socialhistory.org/en/services/reproductions
and follow the instructions to submit a request for a reproduction of the paper. They will make a digital copy for you and email it to you for a fee.
Hope this helps.
In several of your pages about PsyOps during WWII, your only source of information is a closed and archived Website written by Paul Wolf (for example, on https://mikemcclaughry.wordpress.com/the-reading-library/cia-declassified-document-library/the-planning-group-for-psychological-warfare-staff-list/ you refer to http://wayback.archive.org/web/20080827175615/http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/oss/planninggroup.htm ).
Do you have any hint about the value of this source? Paul Wolf is a lawyer (as he presents himself on the Web), not a historian nor a journalist. He hasn’t published his work outside the Net, nor presented the sources of his material. Even if the documents seem true, they could have been forged too, don’t you think? A good point would be the source inside the NARA where the document appear to originate… Do you know if it exists?
Thanks in advance,
That’s a good question. As I have gone along in my researches, I have already found that a number of these documents do exist in Black Vault’s archive of documents that are traceable to the NARA or even the CIA’s online reading room. Plus, a number of them have been cited in what I consider to be reputable journalists (although that’s never as good as a more primary source). I hope to eventually be able to create an additional document trail for each of these documents. At least as valid as can be ascertained sort of an admission from the CIA itself that it’s forged, which isn’t likely to happen. I also try to provide outside sourcing for names mentioned in the Wolf documents showing that they were indeed OSS and what they were doing. Call it my own attempt at independent verification. Thank you very much for raising this question, and for reading my work. Virginia
I just stumbled across your blog while searching for information about Rae Smith. You have some good information here that ties up with various people’s memories here in the UK, but I was wondering if you had any other information about Rae?
Not off-hand, no Ben. If I come across more I’ll add it to this though.
This is incredible research!! Amazing, thank you! I am still looking for your email address.. aaaack!
I would love to speak with you guys. Please post an email 🙂
If it’s a private matter, you can still leave a comment here – just mark it private – if you have questions etc. that you don’t want published, and include your email address and we’ll get back to you when we can.
Hi, just stumbled on your blog doing research, here in Montreal there is a group trying to launch a class action suit against the Canadian government and others as survivors of the atrocities committed by Cameron and his contemporaries. I read with interest and perhaps did not follow the appropriate link where there lies proof that the Canadian government knew the nature of his studies and continued to fund him. As you know the Cooper report states that they had no knowledge therefore no legal responsibility …… can you send me a copy of his application please. My interest is my mother was a victim our family and childhood was destroyed and I really don’t care about any settlement I want history here in our Country re-written and the victims become the victors.
Do you mean this I talked about in a separate post?
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